Is there sectarianism in the 3Ts?

[Retsum]

With the Scottish government bringing forward legislation to tackle sectarianism - particularly in relation to football - I wondered what your experience was in the three towns.

Unfortunately I no longer live in the community so I can only go back in time. In my post in 'Family Memories' I mention that in the '50s a neighbour was in tears when she told my mother her daughter was marrying a catholic. On the other hand, in the same post, I say that my father - a joiner and elder in the Church of Scotland - received loads of work from the Catholic Church in the 1950s - 60s.

Glasgow and the West of Scotland are thought of as hot beds of sectarianism but we found a poem, written by my wife's grandmother, in which she describes her father chasing her catholic boyfriend along the railway line and out of her life. That was in the Black Isle.

What is your experience?

[aland]

i would say yes, why else was a school built for roman catholics in the last few years, the issue of seperate schooling really gets me. Children should be educated in the same building no matter the race, religion or nationality. The catholic church says it is needed to allow for religious education but IMO that is a job for the parents and the church, schools are for the 3 R's and such like. It is 2011 yet our children are segregated for most of their formative years, I can remember 20 years ago doing a essay in modern studies about seperate schools, nothing has changed. We also still have the orange lodge in ardrossan, playing their anti catholic songs. Not to mention any time you walk down the main street seeing hordes of "humans" in rangers and celtic tops, this is ayrshire, surely the only football tops on display should be Kilmarnock and Ayr united or even those of the junior sides

this week we also had the bishop of paisley condemming the scottish government for planning to allow gay marriage, again it is 2011 whatever happened to a equal scotland, if a gay couple want to get married then they should, after all heterosexual marriage isnt exactly a role model in a lot of cases. as a friend said to me "a straight person can walk into a gay bar and have a hassle free evening, it wont work the same if a open gay man or woman walks into a bar in saltcoats"

I wont forget last year before the general election Phil Lardner the independent ex tory standing in glasgow street spouting his bigoted views, I took him to task and TBH gave him the verbal earbashing of my life (it made what I give the average footy ref/linesperson look tame), i looked round and saw a consderable group had gathered, after I was finished/bored the crowd started clapping me and thanking me for taking him to task in such a spectacular style, funny thing was none of his supporters dated to try and get me to be quiet

sorry to say it but IMO sectarianism, racism and bigotry is alive and well in the 3 towns

[Hughie]

I think we should all be aware of the history behind this.

The problem as with the troubles in Ulster go back to "The Plantation" into what was then Ireland in the 1600s by the English Government of Protestant farmers from both England and Scotland.

There has always been migration back and forth between Scotland and Ireland, but when the potato famine struck Ireland in the 1860s it saw a huge influx of the descendants of those settlers and native Irish folks into the west coast of Scotland, many of them bringing there differences with them.

The rise and rise of Rangers and Celtic can be attributed to this and further incomers from Ireland seeking work in shipbuilding in the early 1900s.

[morag]

Sectarianism goes way beyond the three towns. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popish_Plot" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Unfortunately, apart from the Catholic / Protestant thing, because of their dislike for the British claim on their land, the Irish are now also persona non grata.
The very fact a Catholic can not be monarch nor can a reigning monarch marry one, says it all. In this day and age in a supposedly civilised country. Bigotry of the first degree. It's kinda funny, the push, over the years, for rights for gays, women, different ethnicities, criminals etc., but there, lurking in the shadows...
It doesn't affect me personally, I've always seen myself as just me, and I've always got along with all races and religions, but objectively, it's so wrong. And Aland, we wouldn't have stood a snowball's chance if we'd had to go to the Highergrade.

[oliver prin]

I had to laugh when I visited a B and B in Ardrossan on holiday some years ago the landlady said I don't know what my Irish visitors think of the orange carpets all through the hallway,my wife said whats that all about and I had to say don't worry you come from the independent country of Yorkshire you wouldn't understand.I think we should all learn to get on with one another while taking pride in our roots

[Retsum]

Legislation can punish people for doing or saying certain things in public but I doubt if it does much to change their attitudes or opinions and it cannot stop them airing these views within the family or within their network of like-minded friends.

I would go along with Aland in identifying the way education is organized as perpetuating these historical and deep rooted divisions and prejudices. Like him I would like to see private, same sex, denominational and ethnic schools abolished. [All kids would be taught in state schools following the same curriculum up to about 15. At that stage there would be options to stay on and prepare for university or to move on to crafts, trades, sports or performing arts colleges (have I missed any?).]

But it is not just our education system that has built-in attitudes and prejudices. Our legal system is adversarial: its prime aim is not to find the truth but to declare winners and losers. Our political system is aggressively adversarial: if you belong to a party then everything that anyone from another party says is rubbish and any problems are the fault of the opposing parties.

These, I would suggest, all contribute to the problem of sectarianism.

[sweet caroline]

Regarding Retsum's thread.I have 3 nephews who went to school in England . Every morning someone came into the classroom and asked if there were any Roman Catholics.Daily Mass - my nephews kept mum ,at embarrassment at being picked out.Not that i agree with separate schools .The name fits well .Wonder how they caught up with missed lessons?

Sweet Caroline

[GEODGC]

It`s become this years vote winner for the politicians. In the wake of the "incident" between Lennon and McCoist at one of last seasons Old Firm games every numpty in the public eye has had their say on sectarianism and Scottish football. Mostly it`s just hot air not based on fact but on what they THINK the general public want to hear. Of course there is some sectarianism in Scotland and obviously the 3 towns but i don`t think it`s anything like the politicians and press would have you believe. There has been a disproportionate focus on the problem these last 6-12 months. A walk through any of the 3 towns during a week day will show you how big a problem drugs are with smackheids being allowed to roam around the towns hanging about outside chemists making pensioners scared to go inside. There are no jobs in the area and kids leaving school have next to no chance of securing good well paying jobs. Even the ones that go on to further education are struggling to find anything at the end of their courses. Knife crime has become a part of everyday life in Scotland. Look at those 2 scumbags that are up in court for the killing of the young lad Raemon Gormley. It beggars belief both of them were out on bail for knife crimes at the time of the killing meanwhile another halfwit in John Wilson(the man that attempted to attack Neil Lennon) was remanded in custody for a religiously aggravated assault and breach of the peace Which is more serious?

[scottyd]

I cannot comment on today's situation but when I was young in the 60s and 70s sectarianism was the norm and if you don't agree you must have been living in cuckoo land !
Segregated schools, orange order, rangers and celtic, as well as employers who favoured certain religions - it all existed.
I remeber being on a bus travelling from Ardrossan to Saltcoats and as it reached the stop at St Peters School, the Conductress made a comment about the way catholic children smelt !

I married a Catholic and it wasn't the most popular thing I could have done.

Our children have been brought up to respect everyone's beliefs (easier in England) and they find it hard to believe some of the stories I tell them about the old days.

[morag]

One of my neighbour's eldest daughter married a catholic. Her dad didn't attend the ceremony..no way he'd step into a catholic church. Sectarianism might be a wee bit blanketed now, but you can be sure it's still there. We seem to have long memories for grudges, unfortunately. (Campbells/MacDonalds?)

[frank quinn]

Sectarianism; I find me feeling so sad that some bampots still carry this on.In Sheffield even
in the early sixties people did not know what an "Orangeman" was.They thought he was part of a fruitershops
employee.The only "Orangeman" I have ever seen in Sheffield in over 50years was a nutter who went to Hillborough.
He was a fan of Sheffield Wednesday, who went on their Kop, Stripped to the waist,winter & summer, dyed his body
and face "ORANGE"-----NUFF SAID-------------- This is true!!

Sectarianism: grow up !! It is outdated.

[frank quinn]

I forgot about the above nutters name. He was known as "TANGO! get it