Is there sectarianism in the 3Ts?

Discuss all aspects of the three towns in the Threetowners' Lounge.
Jim McCreadie
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Re: Is there sectarianism in the 3Ts?

Post by Jim McCreadie »

Good question Morag! From what I have heard and read of the man, I would not be surprised if he didn't want the Papacy. However, how does he refuse it?
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Re: Is there sectarianism in the 3Ts?

Post by morag »

It's a bit ironic. My mum wanted me to be a teacher..it's what you did. Of course, being me..last thing I wanted to do..guess who ended up as a teacher? And, apparently, if you believe my ex pupils and their parents, a good one.
I've had a lot of accolades but none make me more proud than those that suggest a new open mindedness..whether to fellow man or animals.
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Meg
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Re: Is there sectarianism in the 3Ts?

Post by Meg »

I teach children with additional support needs in a school in Ayr that is labelled 'a hard shift', but the one thing that delights me is that we have half a dozen Scottish catholic families and the same number of Polish catholic families who send their kids there because it is the 'local' school. We have feuds that would scare Mob Dons but I've never heard any reference to religion.

Meg
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Richard

Re: Is there sectarianism in the 3Ts?

Post by Richard »

Hughie wrote:Catholic schools as with other religious schools here in Australia are privately funded, although they all do get a share of the education tax dollar.
I think that if we must have "separate" schools then that is the way to go, but for me it's not a case of finance.
Afterall, Catholics in Scotland tend to pay their taxes - unlike a certain football team I could mention,
NO WIT AH MEAN :wink: :lol:
Seriously, I just believe that separate schools create a 'them & us' environment from early childhood, and
although its not THE cause, it's a big contributor to the sectarian problem.
I'm not religious at-all. I prefer to put my 'faith' into science and the scientists etc, but it is a very firm belief of
mine that religion should be a private matter - between the individual, their family and their church of choice.
I also have nothing against Catholics, that's their choice, I personally couldn't hate someone for their choice of
religion, but I detest the Catholic religion for several reasons, especially their stance on abortion - it completely
clashes with my own stance. Religious education should not be allowed anywhere near our schools.
Maybe if more people thought this way our churches would not be struggling to stay open and far more people
would be attending on a more regular basis instead of once or twice a year ?
Separate schools in Scotland are not the cause of the sectarian problem, but they are a big part of it - whether directly because of them or attitudes towards them, who can say ? I believe it's a mixture of both.
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Re: Is there sectarianism in the 3Ts?

Post by scottyd »

Richard,
Disappointed to read your post.
Despite your comments about your own beliefs you seem to single out "Catholics" for special mention - not sure why.
Also, you use the word "detest" in reference to the Catholic religion - a very emotive expression which will do little to help Catholics view your opinions in a reasonable light.
Also you say you "have nothing against Catholics" but then say you detest "their views on abortion" - should they not be free to hold their views and you to hold yours without the use of such language?

Like you I see no place for religious education in schools - it should be a private matter and all our children should attend their local school together free of religious teachings.
However the biggest barrier to eliminating sectariansim is our own in-built prejudice which defines people in terms of religious "labels".
We are all "Jock Tamson's bairns" and the sooner we drop all the religious and racial labels en the better the world will be.
Religion is not the cause of our problems - we are.
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Re: Is there sectarianism in the 3Ts?

Post by Jim McCreadie »

Hi scottyd
I believe what Richard meant was he disagrees with the Church's attitude towards abortion and that is his right.

My wife and I lost our son at 12 hours old, the Parish Priest came to the house and told us we were punished for practicing birth control! He was quickly shown the door and told not to return. Thank God we have progressed since then. Or have we?

ALL religion in extreme is dangerous. 'Nuff said. Let us close this thread now and put it to bed //perfect
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Richard

Re: Is there sectarianism in the 3Ts?

Post by Richard »

Thank's Jim, I was hoping that's the way it would come across. Thank you.

Scottyd, That is a blatant twisting of my words. At no point whatsoever did I say that I "detest the views of
Catholics". As Jim said, that is their right. And no, I have not "singled out" Catholics. We are talking about
the 3T's here, or at least thats the main focus of the topics thread, and as far as I know there is no Islamic
schools in the 3T's, YET, (nearest one Kilmarnock I think ?) so I could only compare with the situation within
the 3T's, which is Catholic & Protestant - as far as I know ?
I made it VERY CLEAR that I could not hate someone for their choice of religion, I think that says it all.
Yes, detest is a very strong & emotive word, but that's exactly how I feel towards the Catholic churches STANCE on abortion. Scotty, I could tell a similar story to Jim's, concerning a close relative of mine
and the Catholic church, but I'm not going to. I feel it's a bit too private to be aired in public.
Instead, let me give a hypothetical situation and hopefully that will make it a bit clearer where I'm coming from.
A woman gets raped and she ends up pregnant through that ordeal. Now this woman is a practicing Catholic.
What does she do ? She's just been put through one of the most evil ordeals a woman can experience.
Her head is all over the place, her "God" has let her down and she's been completely violated.
She now finds herself with a pregnancy she neither asked for or wanted. Worse still, It's to a monster.
Most women, I imagine, would want to terminate that pregnancy immediately ? But not if you're Catholic.
In fact, her church would turn on HER and seek to make HER feel like a monster by more or less classing her as
some sort of murderer if she even contemplates abortion. that can never be right in my book.
Once again, I can never hate anyone for their choice of religion - just don't expect me to agree with it.
Question is, can the same be said for "the religious" towards me & my views ?????
That is true tollerance.
Jim McCreadie wrote:ALL religion in extreme is dangerous. 'Nuff said. Let us close this thread now and put it to bed
VERY, VERY TRUE, Jim, but I have to disagree with the second part of that. I think this is a great thread with a
lot of great points & statements made. And I believe that is a part of the problem, not enough people are
willing to speak up on the issue of sectarianism in our society and if we don't encourage people to speak up
then we'll continue with the "sweep, sweep, nothing to see here" attitude which allows sectarianism to fester
and grow. People should be encouraged to express their views without fear of being labelled a bigot or having
their words twisted, to have their views questioned and answers given.
Only then will we begin to understand each other and hopefully move forward with a better society ?

PS: A slight clarification; when I say people should be encouraged to express their views without fear of being
called a bigot etc. I mean on sites such as this. There is NO WAY i would ever condone certain views or actions
which occur in & around football stadiums - that's not debate, that's pure hatred.
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Meg
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Re: Is there sectarianism in the 3Ts?

Post by Meg »

Richard wrote: I could only compare with the situation within the 3T's, which is Catholic & Protestant - as far as I know.
Actually Richard, our schools are non denominational and RC, there are no protestant schools in the 3 towns. In fact I dont know of any Church of Scotland schools in Ayrshire.

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Richard

Re: Is there sectarianism in the 3Ts?

Post by Richard »

Yes Meg,
I know that. I was actually trying to make a reference to the main 2 religions in the area. That the
issue is a Catholic & Protestant one, that I was NOT singling out Catholics because if there was an Islamic
school in the area I would have the same views towards that. As there is no Protestant schools I couldn't
very well mention them. But reading it again I can see how someone might interpret it as me suggesting
we had Protestant schools. That certainly wasn't the intention nor is it the case.
:)
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Re: Is there sectarianism in the 3Ts?

Post by scottyd »

Richard,
I am sorry you took my comments to heart.
You obviously hold extremely strong views regarding the Catholic Church and its teachings and you are perfectly entitled to do so.
The difficulty is that people can misinterpret feelings against an institution as also being directed towards members of that institution and it is here where we need to exercise restraint.
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Richard

Re: Is there sectarianism in the 3Ts?

Post by Richard »

No problem, scotty. No harm done.
I was more annoyed that you had misquoted me than anything else.
Yes, I hold quite a few "strong" views, but they are not all about the Catholic church (or its teachings).
Can't disagree with the last sentence in your post. You have a very valid point, but I would suggest this;
If people take a criticism of an institution, that they "follow", as a personal attack on themselves, then
don't you think that the problem lays with them ? Being intolerant of another persons views ?
That, as I understand it, is sectarianism in full flow.
But as I said, no harm done and your last point is a perfectly valid one.
:wink:
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Re: Is there sectarianism in the 3Ts?

Post by scottyd »

Sorry Richard but totally disagree.
To attack an institution is to attack the instution's members - and rightly so since the organisation cannot survive without followers - just like a fire needs oxygen.

So the Masonic Lodge cannot be separated from its members, the Catholc Church from Catholics, the SNP etc etc

That is the very point of eliminating sectarianism in the 3 towns - it is the people who hold the bigoted views and not the institutions so we need to challenge and change individuals views and not just say it is the institutions fault.

So if you feel strongly about abortion then challenge other people's views.

If you feel segregated schools are wrong then challenge those who send their children to them.

If you feel nationalism is divisive then stand up to it.
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