Real or Replica?
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Real or Replica?
Circa 1957, rather than pass on an Irish penny, knowingly or unknowingly, given to me by a customer on my newspaper round, I popped it into a box, and thus began a lifetime habit of collecting ‘foreign coins'. I’m not a numismatist by any stretch of the imagination, I just hold on to foreign coins that come into my possession, unless, of course, I need to spend them while abroad .
It must have been the same year, or maybe 1958, an older brother, gave me what we assumed was a ‘foreign coin’, which he had found buried in sand, when digging a tunnel with pals, at the back of Eglinton School, Ardrossan.
It looked like an old Greek coin, and, without having done anything about it, I must have speculated a thousand times over the years whose head was on the front and who the standing figure was on the reverse – while all the time it just lay in the original box.
During the summer, I visited a ‘dig’ on the Cannon Hill, organised by the Ardrossan Castle Heritage Society, and was intrigued at how excited people got when they riddled away deposits of soil and found small fragments of this and that, and I wondered how elated they might be if they actually came across a coin.
I finally decided to find out about my coin and sent photographs of it to the Hunterian Museum in Glasgow. They referred me to Treasure Trove Scotland, to whom I also sent photographs, and to cut a long story short, they were able to tell me that it was a “STATER” of “MESSENIA” and that the head on the front was “DEMETER, 369-350 BC” (BC not AD), and that the standing figure on the reverse was ZEUS.
[STATER is an expression used to describe ancient coins used in various regions of Greece, and similar coins, imitating Greek staters, minted elsewhere in ancient Europe; MESSENIA is a regional unit in the south-western part of the Peloponnese region in Greece; DEMETER is the Greek goddess of the harvest, grain, and fertility, one of the Twelve Olympian gods that lived on Mount Olympus, and because she was the goddess of the harvest, she was very important to the farmers and peasant people of Greece; and ZEUS was the king of the Greek gods who lived on Mount Olympus, the god of the sky and thunder.]
There were certain aspects of my coin, however, which gave rise to a suspicion that it might be a replica, as described above, as opposed to a genuine coin.
The final test hinged on the weight of the coin – 12 grams genuine, anything less, likely to be a replica – and the result was 4.1 grams – or in other words a replica.
I don’t suppose we’ll ever know how a very good reproduction of a 369-350 BC coin came to be buried in sand at the back of Eglinton School but it was interesting finding out about it – AND SOMETHING ELSE SCORED OFF MY BUCKET LIST - I now know who is on the front and who is on the back!
"DEMETER AND ZEUS" below is a real coin as shown to me by Treasure Trove Scotland; "DEMETER" AND "ZEUS" separately comprise the Ardrossan find.
It must have been the same year, or maybe 1958, an older brother, gave me what we assumed was a ‘foreign coin’, which he had found buried in sand, when digging a tunnel with pals, at the back of Eglinton School, Ardrossan.
It looked like an old Greek coin, and, without having done anything about it, I must have speculated a thousand times over the years whose head was on the front and who the standing figure was on the reverse – while all the time it just lay in the original box.
During the summer, I visited a ‘dig’ on the Cannon Hill, organised by the Ardrossan Castle Heritage Society, and was intrigued at how excited people got when they riddled away deposits of soil and found small fragments of this and that, and I wondered how elated they might be if they actually came across a coin.
I finally decided to find out about my coin and sent photographs of it to the Hunterian Museum in Glasgow. They referred me to Treasure Trove Scotland, to whom I also sent photographs, and to cut a long story short, they were able to tell me that it was a “STATER” of “MESSENIA” and that the head on the front was “DEMETER, 369-350 BC” (BC not AD), and that the standing figure on the reverse was ZEUS.
[STATER is an expression used to describe ancient coins used in various regions of Greece, and similar coins, imitating Greek staters, minted elsewhere in ancient Europe; MESSENIA is a regional unit in the south-western part of the Peloponnese region in Greece; DEMETER is the Greek goddess of the harvest, grain, and fertility, one of the Twelve Olympian gods that lived on Mount Olympus, and because she was the goddess of the harvest, she was very important to the farmers and peasant people of Greece; and ZEUS was the king of the Greek gods who lived on Mount Olympus, the god of the sky and thunder.]
There were certain aspects of my coin, however, which gave rise to a suspicion that it might be a replica, as described above, as opposed to a genuine coin.
The final test hinged on the weight of the coin – 12 grams genuine, anything less, likely to be a replica – and the result was 4.1 grams – or in other words a replica.
I don’t suppose we’ll ever know how a very good reproduction of a 369-350 BC coin came to be buried in sand at the back of Eglinton School but it was interesting finding out about it – AND SOMETHING ELSE SCORED OFF MY BUCKET LIST - I now know who is on the front and who is on the back!
"DEMETER AND ZEUS" below is a real coin as shown to me by Treasure Trove Scotland; "DEMETER" AND "ZEUS" separately comprise the Ardrossan find.
- Attachments
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- DEMETER AND ZEUS.JPG (14.49 KiB) Viewed 3101 times
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- DEMETER.JPG (15.36 KiB) Viewed 3101 times
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- ZEUS.JPG (17.04 KiB) Viewed 3101 times
Nothing is ever really lost to us as long as we remember it.
Re: Real or Replica?
Very Interesting- Penny Tray . Have you an idea of the value of the coin if it was genuine? One of my new hobbies is watching metal detecting on you tube .
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Re: Real or Replica?
Great post, Penny. The mind boggles as to how the coin came to be in that sand behind Eglinton school.
Re: Real or Replica?
Dr Nisbet , my Latin teacher found Roman Coins and donated them to a museum. I think they were found locally.
That made me think yours was real,
That made me think yours was real,
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Re: Real or Replica?
Brian, I didn't raise the matter and neither did Treasure Trove Scotland. They certainly didn't ask me at any time to take it out my box and put it in a safe . I was just delighted to find out that it was Demeter on the front and Zeus on the back. And the one thing that did surprise me was that the coin replicated was circulating in 369-350BC.
Nothing is ever really lost to us as long as we remember it.
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Re: Real or Replica?
The area of sand Hughie, which you and I and a few others will remember so well, was imported, I think, to fill in previous quarry workings. But imported from where? We would be talking horses and carts in those days, so, presumably, it wouldn't be far - the North Shore, South Beach, the sand dunes at Ardeer??? I have to think too, that if my coin was copied in some way from a genuine coin or was second, third or fourth generation imitation from a genuine coin, it must have arrived in local sand via some mariner, not necessarily anywhere near the time of the authentic coin's date of origin. There are two small marks on the rim of my coin which may suggest that it has been worn at one time around someone's neck. I guess we'll never know how it came to be in Ardrossan.
Nothing is ever really lost to us as long as we remember it.
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Re: Real or Replica?
Netta,
Miss Nisbet found a Roman coin on the North Shore. It was an Alexandrian coin of the reign of Maximian, who reigned from 286 to 305 AD.
I can also tell you that a Roman coin of the reign of Constantine the Great, also known as Constantine I, who reigned from 306 to 337 AD, was found in a garden at 10 Kirkhall Drive, Ardrossan. Constantine's mother, Helena, incidentally, was Greek, a point I make just to show that there were Roman/Greek links with Ardrossan.
Nothing is ever really lost to us as long as we remember it.
Re: Real or Replica?
Thanks for details of where Dr Nisbet found her coin, PT.
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Re: Real or Replica?
Many ships returned in ballast, specially those coal ships returning from Ireland. Just a thought, could the sand have arrived as ballast from another foreign country?Penny Tray wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:16 pm The area of sand Hughie, which you and I and a few others will remember so well, was imported, I think, to fill in previous quarry workings. But imported from where?
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Re: Real or Replica?
We had a topic about Eglinton school sand here:
https://threetowners.net/forum/viewtopi ... =25&t=5644
https://threetowners.net/forum/viewtopi ... =25&t=5644
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Re: Real or Replica?
Coal ships returning from Northern Ireland were ballasted with earth. This is a heavy black earth which is very fertile. It was sold up and down the coast. The reason I heard of this was that our back garden in Boglemart was this black earth. When I questioned my father about it, this was what he told me.Hughie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:32 pmMany ships returned in ballast, specially those coal ships returning from Ireland. Just a thought, could the sand have arrived as ballast from another foreign country?Penny Tray wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:16 pm The area of sand Hughie, which you and I and a few others will remember so well, was imported, I think, to fill in previous quarry workings. But imported from where?
JD.
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Re: Real or Replica?
JD,
I have previously posted the following, which supports your post: -
GLASGOW HERALD
15 JANUARY 1890
AYR - FIND OF COINS
A considerable number of coins, GOLD, SILVER, AND COPPER, have been found on the beach near Ayr Dock by children and others. The coins have been dispersed but from examination they seem to be of Irish origin and of considerable age. They were probably all brought across with the large quantities of ballast which comes from Belfast and other Irish ports to Ayr and are deposited on the beach.
[Both George Ardrossan and Meekan have previously posted to the effect that Irish ballast/soil was also deposited on the South Beach, Horse Island, and other areas of Ardrossan.]
I have previously posted the following, which supports your post: -
GLASGOW HERALD
15 JANUARY 1890
AYR - FIND OF COINS
A considerable number of coins, GOLD, SILVER, AND COPPER, have been found on the beach near Ayr Dock by children and others. The coins have been dispersed but from examination they seem to be of Irish origin and of considerable age. They were probably all brought across with the large quantities of ballast which comes from Belfast and other Irish ports to Ayr and are deposited on the beach.
[Both George Ardrossan and Meekan have previously posted to the effect that Irish ballast/soil was also deposited on the South Beach, Horse Island, and other areas of Ardrossan.]
Nothing is ever really lost to us as long as we remember it.