Papal Visit

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Catherine Belle
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Re: Papal Visit

Post by Catherine Belle »

You stil don't get it. :?
it's gone way past the "molesters". They could have been stopped before further damage was done. ....think about it...
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Re: Papal Visit

Post by morag »

Oh, I get it ok Catherine..I'm not a fan of religion although I do consider myself a believer, I just don't believe in churches, ministers, man made rules etc. yeah, I know we need some, but common sense and instinct are my guidelines. However, it's a whole other story, the good old boys club, the protect our own at all costs. Unfortunately it crosses all paths of society, whether it's not wanting to make a fuss, turning a blind eye or blatantly lying / covering up. I'm sorry to say I've actually backed off from incidents that I found totally unacceptable myself. I did so because I thought my interference would make matters worse. It still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
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Re: Papal Visit

Post by Wildfowler Lounge »

Hi Folks, I've been away due to my dad's recent brush with lung cancer - and what a first thread to see when I come back!

The Pope is a visiting Head of State; he deserves the same standard of welcome as any other Head of State. I hope that Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth will be accorded at least the same when she visits the Republic of Ireland, hopefully, in the not-too-distant future. It would be a great sign that the Irish State had reached a level of maturity appropriate to its near century of existence. Like the Pope, she is not merely an HofS, but also the Supreme Governor of her Church, the Church of England. The Pope is the visible head of the Catholic Church on earth; both the Church of England and the Catholic Church claim the same absolute Head: Jesus Christ.

As regards child abuse, Benedict is unjustly maligned. All the cover-ups under John Paul II were dealt with at the Vatican level only when John Paul passed on the portfolio to Cardinal Ratzinger. Initially he didn't believe it was possible - did any of us unless we had been on the receiving end? - but as he waded through the filth (vid. Ratizinger, Stations of the Cross at the Colosseum, 2005, "How much filth there is in the Church, and even among those who, in the priesthood, ought to belong entirely to Him!") he saw for himself what the real situation was, and only because of him has concrete action been taken against duplicitous bishops. Despite the recent media campaign against him regarding "allegations" with regard to his time as Archbishop of Munich, has anyone come up with a single incontrovertible piece of evidence that he was in any way responsible for any abuse or concealing the same? By all means people have every right to lash out, but only at the guilty (list of names too long to include). Hit the right target and hit it hard. Actually, Catholics are extremely fortunate to have a Pope who is not tainted with the scandal of past evil and who has been *at the forefront* of addressing the crimes and criminals committed within the Church. Look out for new procedures to be announced very soon about reducing child abusing clerics to the lay state. These matters are to be referred to Rome since so many local bishops have shown themselves either untrustworthy or incmpetent to deal with them.

On that subject, a word on how the same bishops manifested their untrustworthiness/incompetence is in order. The Catholic Church is supposed to be governed by canon law. In recent years two trends have been in operation, both of which have proven destructive (ask the victims and their families). The first is an anti-juridical mentality whereby an efficient legal structure is parodied as being "pharisaical" and stifles the "action of the [Holy] Spirit" in the Church. Clergy who have appealed to law have been accused of lacking compassion and being more concerned for man-made laws than for charity. Any right-minded person knows that man-made laws can, in fact, be very useful provided they are regularly examined for relevance and adapted accordingly (the current code of canon law came into force in 1983 and additions are made as needed).The result was a setting aside of due process in favour of a more compassionate apporach to conflicts and difficulties. Translated into a child abuse context that means no canonical trial (aside form any duty to report a civil crime to civil authorities) for child-abusing criminals. The other trend, the worship of clinical psychology, then comes into operation. Since before the sixties there has been a tendency to exaggerate the claims of modern psychology at the expense of two millennia of spiritual tradition. Child-abusers need therapy, not penance - and serious penance bloody hurts! Unfortunately, as most pyschologists now agree, their appreciation of what made a child abuser tick was seriously inadequate. The therapies abusers were made to undergo were ineffective, and with certificates of 'therapy completed' unknowledgable bishops put them back in parishes to abuse again.

Someone said they would physically assault the prelates concerned. The good women of Manfredonia did exactly that c.1925, when they dragged the archbishop off the altar and tried to castrate him. He was rescued by local carbinieri. i.e. there are precedents.

To conclude, the old chestnut of celibacy always has to come up. Firstly, the Church doesn't "stop priests getting married," instead she chooses for priesthood only those who say they have a vocation to celibacy. cf. Matthew 19:12 http://bible.cc/matthew/19-12.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; If you don't think you are called by God to celibacy, don't offer yourself for ordination to the priesthood. Why not pray about becoming a married deacon instead? This only applies to the Latin Rite Church. In the Eastern Catholic Rites, like the Orthodox and Oriental Churches, married men may become priests, but priest may still never (re)marry. Secondly, the statistics from the USA (none available for UK/Ireland so far as I am aware) show that the incidence of clerical child abuse is actually higher among non-Catholic denominations despite their having a married clergy. This is to say nothing of the higher figures, too, for other professions e.g. teaching, nursing and medicine.

The last few remarks aren't meant to be a sideways swipe at anyone, but they do invite the question as to why the Catholic Church seems to have been singled out. Whatever the reason, by the time Pope Benedict has finished with his Augean cleansing the Catholic Church will be one of the safest places in the world for children. The disgrace is that it wasn't always so. Thank God - and the media for doing what self-regulation couldn't.

If anyone would still like a high-profile Catholic prelate to attack instead of Pope Benedict, may I suggest Cardinal Daneels, emeritus Archbishop of Mechlin-Brussels. Now, there's a man who deserves to be attacked vigorously and frequently! http://www.irishsalem.com/international ... /index.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Papal Visit

Post by Catherine Belle »

smoke and mirrors...
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Re: Papal Visit

Post by oilers »

Catherine...100% agreement and not anti catholic
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Re: Papal Visit

Post by Wildfowler Lounge »

Is it really smoke and mirrors, or is it that we are faced with a very complex situation in an extremely large multi-national organisation and without making a serious effort to come to some appreciation of the many facts required for balanced judgment, we only have a somewhat hazy impression of what has actually happened?

There is no doubt that some bishops and religious superiors have acted to cover themselves, their cronies and their financial base at the expense of children's safety. Equally there is no doubt that the structure of the Church, since the 1960s at least, is based on the principle of subsidiarity.i.e. these crimes should have been dealt with at the level of the local bishops with no reference to the Vatican as there was, in theory, no need: the bishop can suspend his own clerical criminals without reference to Rome. Therefore, only when the trickle of appeals to Rome which finally became a flood, thanks to media attention, did the whole scandal come up on the Vatican and Papal radar. We know John Paul couldn't accept that such a situation was possible wherein significant numbers of priests were abusing children nor that bishops would actively permit such men to carry on elsewhere. Only when he was overwhelmed with evidence did he budge and ask Cardinal Ratzinger to take responsibility for dealing with it.

My point is not that the guilty are somehow innocent, but that Benedict is not among the guilty. I say that not because he is Pope, but because I can find no contrary evidence. Indeed, he is the one who started the clear-out in the Church presently underway. If anyone hasn't taken the trouble to seriously examine his personal contribution as Cardinal and Pope in safeguarding children and dealing with the guilty, then they have no right to accuse; if they make the effort and do some serious research, they will find there is no need.
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Re: Papal Visit

Post by Alexmac442 »

Regardless of what Pope Benedict's views, actions (or non actions) and his personal behaviour, there is an invisible sign on ALL heads of state desks:- THE BUCK STOPS HERE!
I know this is a sensitive subject but out in the World there are young people who have had their lives ruined by beasts of prey in all walks of life. For a so called Man of God beast, such behaviour is 100 times worse than the "common pervert" beast.
These are not cases for internal action such as Bishops firing these people, these are CRIMINAL and MORAL actions and should be referred to the Police IN EVERY CASE.
Pope Benedict you should have the courage and convition to identify every one of these these beasts and have them turned over to the Authorities. You have the power to do it. DO IT!
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Re: Papal Visit

Post by morag »

and what about the falsely accused? Where is the line drawn when it comes to abusing children? Does it only count in physical contact? What about the countless kids / adults who have ongoing problems caused by self esteem issues?
Many years ago I volunteered at the local school which my children attended. One of my sons classmates fell at playtime and got a bloody knee. I picked him up and hugged him, tried to console him and stop his tears. I was told afterwards I mustn't do that as I, and the school, could be sued for 'inappropriate contact'.
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Re: Papal Visit

Post by John Donnelly »

'we only have a somewhat hazy impression of what has actually happened'

Wildfowler, hi.

I have been deliberately staying well away from this one, but now I feel I have to say something.

Reference the above quote, you're doing a heck of a job defending the indefensible and then telling us that. Trying to insinuate that other bodies were just as bad is irrelevant. Bad is bad and they're all bad together. Any organisation, especially religious ones, have a special responsibility for their followers / members and those in authority who minister to them. That responsibility holds at all levels.

If you think that the Catholic Church was unaware of what was going on all these years, you have no idea how the Church operates. It has a better intelligence service than anything the KGB and CIA ever dreamt of; and that is outside itself. Inside its own house it is master of all it surveys, and it surveys everything.

What has been going on is a disgrace, and the bigger disgrace is that it has been concealed to preserve the reputation of the Church. Everything and every-one else was subserviant to this.

A very, very unhappy JD.
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Re: Papal Visit

Post by Wildfowler Lounge »

JD, Pope Benedict is easily defended and for all the lashing around to be seen hereI have still to see a single piece of evidence.

As for the Church's "intelligence service," do tell!

What I have seen is some very cunning behaviour to prevent knowledge of crimes and cover-up reaching higher levels of ecclesial supervision. Don't employees frequently try and succeed in preventing their superiors from discovering their secrets?

The meaning of the portion of my last post which you have excised is self-evident when it is restored to its context.

Finally, I have not told anyone that I intend to defend the indefensible. A careful reading of what I have written reveals that I have no intention of trying to defend the guilty, but only the innocent.
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Re: Papal Visit

Post by Catherine Belle »

Wildfowler Lounge wrote:,,,l A careful reading of what I have written reveals that I have no intention of trying to defend the guilty, but only the innocent.
Not so. The "innocent" are the children.
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Re: Papal Visit

Post by Wildfowler Lounge »

Catherine Belle wrote:
Wildfowler Lounge wrote:,,,l A careful reading of what I have written reveals that I have no intention of trying to defend the guilty, but only the innocent.
Not so. The "innocent" are the children.
I fail to see any relevance in this remark to the discussion in hand. The innocence of the victims is not in question, no one has accused the children of anything. The Pope and many other bishops are falsely accused of being complicit in the cover up: they are the ones whose innocence I am defending. The Church is not a monolith nor a being with a single intellect and will; individuals must answer for their actions. Smearing the innocent with the filth of the guilty is unjust and unworthy of rational humans who respect justice and freedom. Guilty bishops should go to prison, innocent bishops, including the Pope, have a right to their reputations.
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